“Brazilian paleontology has a large role of women”, says paleontologist Lucy Souza

The films of the franchises ‘Jurassic Park’ and ‘Jurassic World’ are very successful and have millionaire box office. But why do dinosaurs fascinate from children to adults? The idea that these different and giant animals already inhabited our planet millions of years ago and the phenomenon of the extinction of species that dominated the world are fuel for the imagination, generating many fictions and documentaries.

There is a lot of curiosity about how discoveries are made in the area of ​​Paleontology, which brings increasingly complete information about these incredible beings. In this area of ​​science, the women’s tips conversation with paleontologist Lucy Souza. Professor and Coordinator of Research, Extension and Internationalization at Faculdade Estácio do Amazonas and substitute professor at Universidade Federal do Amazonas (UFAM), post-doctoral fellow at Museu da Amazônia, works in the areas of Systematic Biology, Philosophy of Science, Paleontology, Representation in Science among others. In addition, she develops scientific dissemination and science popularization work on the ‘Make Science BR’ channel.

Check out how Lucy Souza’s interest in Paleontology came about, the importance of having women in this area and her opinion about dinosaurs in movies!

Women’s Tips – How did your interest in Paleontology come about?

Lucy Souza – My interest arose around 1997 or 1998, when Globo published a set of fascicles here in Brazil that talked about Paleontology. Mainly dinosaurs, North Americans and Europeans. I loved these fascicles, they brought information about what Paleontology is, about animals, environments and that’s what made me want to be a paleontologist basically.

How is the field of Paleontology for women: are there more difficulties to get space and recognition?

Being a woman, and especially a trans person, is very complicated in Paleontology for two reasons: the first is what happens in any science, which is structural machismo. We are far less likely to hold leadership positions, to have our projects approved, to win a productivity grant. These things are structural in academia, and obviously part of society. Another point is that Paleontology is a science that involves a lot of fieldwork and a lot of physical resilience. Resisting going out into the woods, the forest, the desert, Antarctica and having the physical strength to extract fossils and resist the weather, involves the issue of misogyny , which women will not stand. Particularly in my case, as a trans woman in the Amazon, it gets a little worse, it’s quite a transphobic state. And inside, unfortunately, this is more intense, my passability as a cis person has to be at the maximum because, if people realize that I’m a trans person, I can be attacked, violated, expelled from places, mainly for reasons of religious fundamentalism and conservatives.

More than 30 species of dinosaurs have been discovered in Brazil. Could you talk a little about the paleontologist’s work in the country, what were the most important discoveries and how is the participation of women in these researches?

In Brazilian Paleontology as a whole, not only with dinosaurs, for about two decades now, there has been a huge push by paleontologists working in the area. Unfortunately, I won’t be able to mention them all and I apologize for the ones I don’t mention, but I would like to bring some that are easy in my head and that I am close to: Annie Hsiou, from USP in Ribeirão Preto, who is not just a sensational co-worker but also does field work here in Amazonas too and deals with all this machismo issue, in addition to being an amazing mother of two children. She is a very inspiring woman and her work is very important for understanding the origin of the Amazon biome – this is fundamental. Fabiana Nunes, from UFABC, who is a very renowned pterosaur researcher, has interesting articles on biomechanics, on the evolution of these animals, she even has partnerships and articles with Chinese people, and this deserves a lot of attention. I cannot fail to mention Aline Ghilardi, who has done an exceptional job with dinosaur footprints, other animals as well, but especially with fossils. But I think that what is currently giving more prominence to it is precisely the issue of colonialism, not only in Paleontology, but in science as a whole. She is a real inspiration to me. And last but not least, Kamila Bandeira, also a co-worker, who described the biggest dinosaur in Brazil, Austroposeidon magnificus. This species was the first Brazilian dinosaur to appear in an international documentary, the Prehistoric Planet from the BBC, which premiered last week on Apple TV. So, what she achieved was something incredible, phenomenal and certainly deserves more attention in the Brazilian media.

And what is the importance of Paleontology, especially for Brazil?

This area is important for several reasons, including commercial. Without Paleontology, it is much more complex to detect fossil fuels, for example. When trying to understand more about these animals, people end up having access to science and consequently developing critical reasoning, critical thinking and consuming more scientific information, which makes citizens more prepared to deal with fake news, with disinformation, I see Paleontology as a great gateway to science. In addition, Paleontology has great tourist potential, which is still largely wasted in Brazil. In several fossiliferous regions, there could be government investments to create strategies for popularization and awareness of the importance of museums, tourism with protection, opening for visitation of this collection that is very rich throughout Brazil. Isolated regions of Brazil could obtain a source of income with this attraction, scientific tourism.

In addition to working with Paleontology, you work with scientific dissemination on the networks. Why is this kind of work important?

Scientific dissemination is a dream I’ve always had and finally in 2019 I managed to make it possible, after my gender transition that gave me more strength to deal with these things. It’s just that I’m currently on hold because I basically have three jobs. So I’m not having a lot of time, and that hurts me a lot because it’s something that I really loved doing. Scientific dissemination was born as a hobby for me, but I recognized the importance: helping people, trying to make them aware of the importance of science. Both for guidelines about the LGBTQIA+ experience and also about Paleontology, Philosophy. Scientific dissemination is a powerful tool for raising public awareness about the importance of science, about scientific content and so on.

Your interest in Paleontology came from a media product, do you consume other products related to the area, such as ‘Jurassic Park’ and ‘Jurassic World’? Do you believe that the representation of Paleontology in them can be an incentive for more people to be interested in this area of ​​science?

I think only the original ‘Jurassic Park’ had any relevance in Paleontology, because then all the other movies were action, adventure, dealing more with the genetic part and dinosaurs were portrayed as monsters. In the original film, there really is a little bit of the profession, a little bit of the knowledge. I think that certainly served as an attraction, because I have several colleagues who speak openly that they became paleontologists under the influence of the first ‘Jurassic Park’.

The representation of dinosaurs in films, despite being quite scientifically correct at the time of the first film’s release, is no longer in accordance with what science says and perpetuates some misconceptions. What are the biggest hits and misses?

‘Jurassic Park’ is really dated, for example on the issue of feathered dinosaurs and the size of some species, this is quite wrong. But they were quite right to treat dinosaurs as active animals or as intelligent animals, which is what it sounds like they were. ‘Jurassic World’ is a decadence in the scientific part, they turned dinosaurs into monsters. Things that had gone right in previous films have gone wrong again in the new franchise. For example, stegosaurs have their tails high above their waists, they don’t touch the ground like in the recent movie. Triceratops has a more slender body than the film depiction. The biggest hit is to treat dinosaurs as active and intelligent animals, but there are still hits and misses in the matter of anatomy, it varies a lot.

Due to the recent case of a Brazilian dinosaur, the Ubirajara, which was taken to Germany, there has been talk of “scientific colonialism”. Could you explain a little about this concept and its importance?

Colonialism is a sociological definition that there is a society that imposes its will on another, destroying the culture, the essence, of that other society and in general usurping the riches. In science, this is no different, this type of colonialism still happens when countries of the global north, mainly capitalist countries, invest in predatory, colonialist science that encourages its researchers to go to countries of the global south and literally steal their fossils, extract without give a return to the society they belong to. This is a harmful practice, which not only causes damage to science, to the development of science, but also generates socioeconomic damages for colonized societies.

Much more than a subject for fun films, Paleontology serves to demonstrate the importance of women in science and investment in the formation of critical, curious and citizen people. Meet black women who revolutionized society with their achievements and inventions.